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Hi, Suzi!
Sorry for the delay, but I needed time to answer about complex topics in another language, and to give possibly good and understandable answers. I hope I succeeded. Here are the topics of which we have spoken:
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MY OBJECTION
1) Naida is seen in your analysis as a substantially normal person, while, in Gerdha's analysis it is clear how anaffective and possessive she is towards Daisuke; she has a sick love towards him and an unhealthy and very rancorous mental state against him since at the beginning of their relation on Fleed.
YOUR ANSWER
There is no evidence in the anime that Naida had a disturbed mental state while she was living on Planet Fleed prior to its invasion and destruction by the Vegan Forces. In fact the dialogue between Duke and Naida in the Centre when she was telling her escape story, Daisuke told her: "Also your suffering heart will heal, and you will be able to return to be the person you were". So Naida was indeed a "normal" person with a "normal mental state" prior to the Fleedian War. Yes, indeed in my analysis Naida was a normal person while on Plant Fleed prior to the war but that doesn't mean that she was perfect.. Every character has its flaws and defects, and no body is a complete angel or a complete demon, everybody has their good and bad sides and that's pretty normal, isn't it? What matters is who do one clicks with and be able to deal with their defects. Naida's love to Duke as I mentioned was selfish and immature for the most of it but it was real, you can agrue whether that type of love is healthy or unhealthy, but no one can deny that she genuinely loved him. I DO believe that Naida's love to Duke may have had immature beginnings with selfishness and possessiveness just like any new love relationship when it initially starts but it has definitely evolved into a more mature one albeit very late. The reason I'm saying this is that unlike Rubina, she was able to let go of Duke when she realised that he was in love with someone else (i.e. Hikaru) and that Hikaru loved him in return. The evidence for that is the dialogue that took place between her and Hikaru in front of the cell where Daisuke was deliriously screaming. My Japanese isn't perfect and is at a really very basic beginner's level but when Naida said to Hikaru "You love Duke, don't you? ......Me too love Duke"; in the Japanese dialogue if I heard it correctly, she used the term Ai 愛 for love in both Hikaru's case and her own (she didn't not use Suki 好き which she has used when she was telling Duke that she loved him, and she didn't even use Koi 恋). From my studies in Japanese Language, I learnt that even though suki is the most common term used to express love, it actually means "like", "fond of", "preferred" and koi refers more to being affectionate with or in love with someone i.e. romantic love whereas Ai is the biggest and highest form of love, Ai is true love and is generally thought to be something two lovers gradually gain months after beginning a romantic relationship. So basically the difference between the two emotions is that "koi" is always wanting and "ai" is always giving as stated in one of the explanatory Japanese language websites. Naida used the term Ai in her speech with Hikaru because at that point in time she realised the difference between being in love with someone and truly loving him enough to let him go. And that's what she did. Her love was genuine even if it was mad or immature at the beginning. On the other hand, Rubina didn't let go go of Duke Fleed, she was possessive of him until her last breath asking him to name the first red flower that bloomed on Fleed after her. Now, that's truly possessive selfish immature love that hasn't evolved at all.
MY ANSWER
I believe that Naida had a possessive state of mind towards Duke Fleed from the time in which they were on Fleed because, when Duke sees Naida on Earth, he is affectionate towards her but also cautious. In fact:
- he does not tell her anything about Hikaru;
- he does not tell her anything about where is Grendizer;
- he suddenly appears in the hangar, as if he were looking for her, worried about not seeing her anymore.
These are typical behaviors of people who knows that are dealing with a person you care about, but, at the same time, that person should be treated with caution. Besides, Daisuke is not behaving in this way because Naida was changed since Fleed days: he behaves immediately in this way, as soon as he sees her on Earth. Daisuke's statements are emblematic: "if this is true" "if you tell the truth" when Naida speaks about Sirius killed by a traitor. That is, he contemplates the possibility that Naida could lie: he says this possiblity even twice. Besides, Daisuke's phrase: "to return to be the person you were": does not imply the fact that Naida was at first a normal person, selfless and kind, but in relation to the suffering she had: in fact, Daisuke says also: By staying here, you may perhaps forget the nightmarish events you have experienced on the planet Fleed, Naida (...) Your suffering heart will also heal, and you can return the person you were
Of course, before, on Fleed, Naida did not behave the same way as when she met Daisuke on Earth: but these negative characteristics, which were already present in her, have developed a lot, fueled by resentment towards Duke, because - according to her - he abandoned her on Fleed.
A selfish and immature love, as you say that Naida had - and indeed it was - is not a true love, and it cannot even develop as true love: being a false love, it starts from wrong assumptions and it cannot do anything but get worse. Between Naida and Daisuke there was sexual attraction, complicity, but not love. In their ride on Earth, they act like two kids, pretending both. It is a sick relationship, because they don't take into account the truth of the situation in which they are. A love without truth is a false love.
Moreover, more than the fact that Naida uses the term "Ai", the context in which the action takes place is more important. Duke Fleed, the man Naida "loves", has just been hit strongly with a bar from herself - even if she was not fully aware of it-, he went crazy and the only cure, perhaps, is electroshock, which could be deadly ... well, in such a context (in which Naida does not even make a fold on his face, while she does not even make a slight expression of pain in seeing the scene of a mad Daisuke), she is interested only in her comparison with Hikaru, competing with her to see which one of them loves Duke Fleed more. It is a sick behavior, at least.
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MY OBJECTION
2) Daisuke did not abandon Planet Fleed aboard Grendizer while it was still alive: he left Fleed when it had been completely destroyed and all Fleedians were already dead (he himself says so in ep 2, and he confirms it before in Naida's episode). So, Daisuke was not able to have guilt feelings for leaving a dead planet. He can have remorse for the damage he indirectly caused to Fleedians with his behavior with Naida and Rubina, but not for abandoning them.
YOUR ANSWER
Guilt is a very tricky emotion, it doesn't have to have a rationale to exist and it can engulf a person without any good reason if their mental state is fragile or is weakened by any factor. As a simple example which I encounter in a lot of people is what they feel after losing a loved one to death of whatever reason. If the person died of illness after exhausting all the possible treatment avenues, those who loved him the most would feel guilty that they didn't do enough to keep that person healthy and alive even if that person willingly chose to lead an unhealthy lifestyle or refused certain treatments. Even if the illness was something like cancer that we still don't have cures for all of its forms, those who loved them the most would still blame themselves for the death (true, this is an abnormal grieving reaction, but that's what it is...guilt and self-blame even if one had nothing to do with it). Same if the person died of an accident, the surviving relatives and loved ones would also self-blame themselves that they should've done more to protect him/her or stop him/her from going or doing that thing the day he/she died. They feel guilty that they didn't spend enough time with the deceased or didn't do this or that, and may even feel guilty that they're still alive and that person isn't! Daisuke's mental state was indeed very fragile after witnessing the atrocity and the massacre of his family and the people of his Planet. He for sure, even if he did everything he could to save it, would still have guilt feelings towards his Planet and his people that he hasn't done enough to save them. He may even feel guilty that he survived and they didn't. All these guilt emotions are expected to exist in any person in his situation. Even the soldiers at war who survive return with guilt feelings that they're still alive whereas their comrades died even if they had nothing to do with their death.
MY ANSWER
All right, but these examples don't eliminate the facts: Duke Fleed left the planet after it was destroyed and no one was left alive. He clearly said this several times. Then, he can always have remorse such as "I could have done more", but the fact remains that he left after the planet Fleed was destroyed. So he did not abandoned the planet nor the Fleedians.
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MY OBJECTION
3) Hikaru did not scold Naida for attacking Daisuke with a iron bar: she only answered her question without showing any bitterness.[
YOUR ANSWER
In the Japanese version, the intonation of Hikaru's dubber gave me the impression that her reply was expressed in a surprised tone with a bit of condemnation for Naida's actions.
MY ANSWER
It is therefore a different thing from "scolding". Moreover, from a psychological (and even logical) point of view, it is impossible that Hikaru (or every woman) could speak with total tranquillity to the person who has just badly hit with a steel bar - conscious or not - the man she loves. It would be totally unlikely. So, the surprised tone, along with a condemnation tone for Naida's actions seems to me normal: it is however a different thing from an open scolding.
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MY OBJECTION
4) Following your version, if Rubina married with Duke, Grendizer would have been in the service of King Vega. But, if that were the case, there would not have been any need to invade a planet to get the robot! In that case, King Vega would have forced Rubina to marry Duke anyway, since with that marriage, King Vega could have had Grendizer for free. After all, invasions cost money and men. It would have been more logical to think that the King of Fleed really believed that the planet Fleed would become neutral with marriage, without using Grendizer in the service of King Vega: after all, the Fleedians already had Grendizer as a weapon of defense and King Vega had to fear it, since he had made an attack in the conditions in which Duke could not drive the robot. And this already puts into question the hypothesis "Grendizer still under construction". Instead, I think it was fully functional, and, after the conquest of Fleed and the capture of Grendizer and Duke, the Vegans, perhaps with Zuril's guidance, reinforced the robot with some weapon or other, but Grendizer was already able to face the veghian invasion of Fleed. If not so, the construction of the facts would lack logic.
YOUR ANSWER
We can't deny that in episode 2 dialogues it was stated that Grendizer was constructed by Vega utilising Planet Fleed's advanced technologies, and we can't deny either what was stated in the dialogues of episode 25 that Grendizer was the protector God of Fleed implying that it was already constructed before the Vegan attack on Fleed and this is also supported by the dialogues of episode 49. So how do we the poor audience make sense of these inconsistencies in the dialogues? We just have to work on them like a puzzle hoping that the pieces match and fall into place. Here is my theory, Grendizer was indeed a Fleedian invention constructed on Planet Fleed by Fleedians to protect their planet against any pending future invasions whether Vegan or else. Vega the Great would have definitely aspired to get hold of that horrific machine to add it to his conquering army. Making Planet Fleed an ally that would assist him with warfare on other planets was out of the question because this was not the principle of Planet Fleed foreign policy or attitude towards other planets. Vega the Great had to find another plan to get hold of Grendizer. Direct conflict with Planet Fleed in the presence of Grendizer was not an option either because he would lose. When the King of Fleed proposed the engagement of his son to his daughter, he took advantage of the situation studying the construction of Grendizer and everyone that concerned it (albeit secretly through spies) awaiting the opportune moment to steal it. He may have also hoped that Duke wasn't in agreement with his planet's pacifist attitudes towards other planets and would share his conquest ambitions. However he must have figured out during the engagement of Rubina to Duke, that Duke was not the "fighting aggressive ambitious person" who would endorse his cause and assist him in his conquest of the universe with Grendizer, but he wanted that machine at any cost. For sure if Duke were the type of person that he hoped him to be - an ambitious ruthless violent cold-blooded killer - he would have proceeded with the marriage plans especially that his daughter fell in love with him. Vega the Great was a cunning person, he knew very well that the King of Fleed was playing a game of time with the engagement proposal and he accepted and played along. The game could go either way, but Vega the Great didn't want to be the loser and was indeed a much better player in this political game. There was no chance for Planet Fleed to be neutral in the upcoming conquest wars if marriage between Duke and Rubina occurred. The King of Fleed knew the limitations of his small planet in the face of Vega's great ambitious plans. His only ally was time, prolong it as much as possible until maybe a miraculous solution could happen. Perhaps, like you said during the negotiations of the marriage contract, the King of Fleed requested that Planet Fleed remained neutral in any upcoming war and would not engage with Grendizer in support of the Vegan army or the opposing side, but Vega the Great refused, otherwise why would he sacrifice his daughter to marry a man who he didn't think was worthy of the massive empire he was building for her? I think that deep down Vega the Great would have never agreed to such a condition, but his cunningness made him pretend to accept it while he was devising a plan to steal Grendizer and punish the Fleedians for their refusal to assist them. So he may have signed a fake peace treaty and took his daughter to Planet Vega claiming that she needed to get some preparations ready for her upcoming wedding to the Prince of Fleed. And while the Fleedians were deluded that they were safe he attacked the planet and stole Grendizer then plundered it with the vegatron bombs. His Vegan scientists may have worked on Grendizer aiming to disable the "one-pilot only" option that was assigned to Duke Fleed, otherwise how would any Vegan soldier be able to board it and use it? They may have also enhanced some of its features and that's what the dialogue in episode 2 was referring to.
MY ANSWER
In episode 2 it is said that "Vegans wanted to use Fleed technology to build Grendizer". But, if Gendizer had not existed already,
- Duke Fleed would not have gone to drive Grendizer during Vega attack
- Vegans would not have done many working to deceive the king of Fleed: they would attack immediately, without involving Rubina and a deception marriage.
So that phrase probably means that the Vegans wanted to make Grendizer more dangerous than before. Besides, the hypothesis of a neutral Fleed planet is much more likely, since, as has been said, the Vegans feared Grendizer, the secret Fleedian weapon. Moreover, as I said, Fleedians knew that Rubina was their "life insurance": I don't think they would let her go freely. Indeed, even if - as if it were absurd - they did so, in that case Daisuke would have kept watch on board of Grendizer or nearby, expecting a (possible) powerful enemy attack. Instead, the enemy attack had happened while he was away studying with Morus. So, the only possibility is that Rubina had gone away secretly.
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MY OBJECTION
5) Moreover, the planet Fleed was not pacifist, but peaceful: it has a different meaning . "Pacifist" means a person who hates violence and war in every form, so he also refuses the use of weapons. "Pacific", instead, means a person who prefers peace, but accepts to fight when there is no other option. Dasuke has always been peaceful, never pacifist: therefore, I believe that also Planet Fleed was peaceful. In fact, a "pacifist" planet would never have built a weapon like Grendizer.
YOUR ANSWER
Pacifist in the English dictionary means:a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable. Peaceful in the English dictionary means:not involving war or violence. I don't recall what the original Japanese dialogue stated in regards this point (I will check it later though), but my understanding from the Arabic dubbing is that it was a planet that abandoned all reasons and causes of war. So whether it was peaceful or pacifist, the end point is that it won't engage in any war unless it was for self-defence. Duke Fleed himself struggled at the beginning of the war on Earth to bring himself to board Grendizer and fight the Vegans. We have seen this internal struggle in episode 1 in particular. So I tend to think that his stance in this episode was that of his planet as well, hence his hesitation to use Grendizer. Self defence is indeed different from unprovoked aggression and assault on others, and no sane creatures in the universe would not have any means of self defence, even if weak in comparison to the attacker. Even the animals in various types, forms and shapes and species have means of self defence. So how would advanced beings like the Fleedians not have any means of self-defence? They have purposely built Grendizer to fend off and scare away any invading attempts.
MY ANSWER
The fact that Fleedians built Grendizer means that Fleed was not a pacifist planet: pacifists would never built a weapon. A pacific planet, instead, would built wepons, because pacifics know that "si vis pacem, para bellum" ("if you want peace, prepare the war"). Also, Duke Fleed on Earth did not want to fight because he did not want to revive his trauma of the same responsibility about the destruction of Fleed that he - with his behavior with Naida and Rubina - indirectly caused. Not for pacifism ideology.
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MY OBJECTION
6) Rubina could not return to Vega in agreement with the Fleedians, who were sure she would be back soon. If that were the case, the Fleedians would have shown themselves to be very naive, if not stupid. Since Rubina was their life insurance, they would never let her go. They would have asked for guarantees, they could not even afford the slightest chance that Rubina really left them. Then, a hidden departure of Rubina seems more logical.
YOUR ANSWER
Like I explained above, Vega the Great might have deceptively signed a peace treaty with the King Fleed to mislead them into believing that they were safe while he took his daughter back to Planet Vega prior to attacking them, so isn't a peace treaty enough of a guarantee for security and safety?
MY ANSWER
I think it is difficult believe that Fleedians were so naive as to trust a piece of paper, rather than to trust to the physical presence of Vega's daughter herself on their own planet.
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MY OBJECTION
7) In your analysis you doubt of the sudden attack on Fleed because, in episode 71, there were Fleedian speakers that said of Vega invasion. I don't remember them, but anyway, even if they were there, I do not understand where is the problem. The Fleedians were able to easily recognize a Veghian spaceships. "sudden attack" does not automatically mean "unrecognizable attack".
YOUR ANSWER
Ok, let me explain it better. On a radar one sees approaching planes, saucers, spaceships, unidentified flying objects, etc.. One doesn't immediately deduce that any of these things would attack them unless there was already an established state war between the involved parties or exchanged threats. One also doesn't get to recognise who the attacker is unless they identify themselves via direct communication or by certain signs or emblems on the crafts involved. Planet Fleed and Planet Vega were not in a war situation, on the contrary, at that stage there was a peace treaty between them. So the first Vegan attack was indeed unexpected and sudden. In an established state of war between two countries, both sides know each other's identity and expect attacks from one another. For example, when the attack on Hiroshima with the atomic bomb happened, and according to Wikipedia: During the night of August 5–6, Japanese early warning radar detected the approach of numerous American aircraft headed for the southern part of Japan. Radar detected 65 bombers headed for Saga, 102 bound for Maebashi, 261 en route to Nishinomiya, 111 headed for Ube and 66 bound for Imabari. An alert was given and radio broadcasting stopped in many cities, among them Hiroshima. The all-clear was sounded in Hiroshima at 00:05. About an hour before the bombing, the air raid alert was sounded again, as Straight Flush flew over the city. It broadcast a short message which was picked up by Enola Gay. It read: "Cloud cover less than 3/10th at all altitudes. Advice: bomb primary." The all-clear was sounded over Hiroshima again at 07:09.from the above it was obvious that the enemy was detected and identified and the raid alerts were sounded. True though that the scale of the attack and its consequences were totally unexpected but the attack itself was not sudden or unexpected because Japan was already in a state of war, and being attacked is a daily normal expectation of its inhabitants. Planet Fleed on the other hand had a peace treaty with Planet Vega and their heirs were going to get married to each other soon, so why would they expect the approaching Vegan saucers to attack them in that city where Duke and Morru were unless those Vegan saucers and warships attacked another city earlier?! The sounded alert in episode 71 suggested that they knew that were under attack by the Vegan Focres, so it is very likely that the attack started in another nearby place and progressed quickly to that city.
MY ANSWER
It seems difficult to think that Fleedians, with their advanced scientific knowledge, had not been able to immediately recognize Vega's ships. Besides, about the fact that the attack was unexpected, it was because of the sudden absence of Rubina, who had moved away from Fleed without their knowledge. I think this hypothesis is the most logic.
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MY OBJECTION
8) In your analysis, you consider Duke Fleed, on his planet Fleed, as if he was the same person who was on Earth, then with his own moral caliber: but it is not so. This is demonstrated, for example, by the fact that his father had kept him unaware of his marriage to Rubina, thinking that Duke would rebel against the idea of sacrificing himself.
YOUR ANSWER
The fact that the King of Fleed hid his intentions of wedding him to Rubina is not evidence at all that Duke did not have the same high moral calibre he had on Earth, otherwise Duke wouldn't have agreed to marry Rubina in the first place after his father explained the fragile political situation of planet Fleed to him. He wouldn't have risked his life either to retrieve Grendizer from the Vegans after they stole it. In fact if he had no high moral calibre he would've done exactly what Naida falsely accused him of doing which is saving himself at the expense of his planet and his people. He could've even negotiated with Vega the Great a deal to survive on Planet Vega as a respected royality, couldn't he? I did explain that the King of Fleed hid his intentions from his son initially because he feared that his son's emotions towards Naida would blind him to see any reason or hear any justifications before Rubina came to Planet Fleed; it's not because he didn't trust or doubt his son's high moral calibre and high sense of duty towards his planet; after all Duke Fleed was the crown prince of Planet Fleed and he would've have been raised with high sense of responsibility and morality towards his duties and services to the Fleedian people. If you have a more convincing evidence that Duke did not have the same high moral calibre on Fleed that he had on Earth, please show them to me, because what you mentioned did not convince me at all that he didn't.
MY ANSWER
I think it is better I clearly explain my concept: Duke Fleed, on Fleed, was not evil and then, on Earth, he become good after all that has passed. I did not mean to say this: it is a too simplified and superficial - even erroneus - presentation of the situation. Duke Fleed has always had qualities of altruism even on Fleed. Otherwise, these qualities would never have developed on Earth: a completely corrupt Duke Fleed would never have become the Duke Fleed we know. Duke's altruism on Fleed is seen in his sacrifice in saving Morus, for example.
However, Duke Fleed is also the same person who abandoned his sister in the flames. He wanted to to go to Grendizer, all right, but what he did to Maria remains a bad action, anyway. Basically, Duke Fleed committed a murder for rescue omission. It can be explained by his panic, by his desire to repair for his lack and superficiality he had with the Naida-Rubina relationship: but it is still an indirect murder. Duke Fleed on Fleed was both selfless and selfish: only later, when he left planet Fleed in flames and completely destroyed, with all Fleedians dead, he wandered for years in space: so, he was able to review what he did and to realize the severity of his actions. From that moment, his maturation began. Not completely, anyway: something about the old Duke can be seen even in the first few Grendizer episodes (his behaviour with Koji, for example).
It has been my pleasure in engage in such an interesting discussion with you Joe7, and I thank you again for welcoming me on your forum.
Thank you: I hope I explained myself. If something is not clear to you, you are free to ask.
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Hi, Jerome!
Reading your post, I see that you are very interested to the symbolic meaning of UFO Robot Grendizer and his world, so famous also by us Italians, so much to become a classic of our times. In Italy, sometimes, when the moon is red, it is often said that "Vega will attack", just to say ...
Grendizer, in fact, is very different from the various Mazinga and Jeeg Robot, so much so that I was amazed when I discovered that the author of all these works was the same, so much they seemed different, above all about the underlying philosophy. Even now, I find it hard to think of Grendizer as a work by Go Nagai, even if it is indeed so. The existential drama and the pleasure of the violence in Devilman, the battle to the death in Mazinger Z and Great Mazinger, the very, very hard training of Jeeg Robot, the continuous challenge and challenges to become stronger...all this stuff, in Grendizer there is no track. It can be seen (occasionally) only in Koji or Maria, but never in Daisuke nor in Hikaru.
I believe that Grendizer's symbolism is very deep, even beyond the parallels to the Homeric heroes you mentioned: I think it touches the cornerstones of our way of life, that of the man of all time.
Thanks for your analysis!. -
Suzi.
User deleted
Hi, Suzi!
Sorry for the delay, but I needed time to answer about complex topics in another language, and to give possibly good and understandable answers. I hope I succeeded.
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Hi Again Joe7,
No need to apologise, life is busy for everyone and it has been for me too, so my apologies for the delay too.
Below are my replies to your answers
YOUR ANSWER
[color=green]I believe that Naida had a possessive state of mind towards Duke Fleed from the time in which they were on Fleed because, when Duke sees Naida on Earth, he is affectionate towards her but also cautious. In fact:
- he does not tell her anything about Hikaru;
- he does not tell her anything about where is Grendizer;
- he suddenly appears in the hangar, as if he were looking for her, worried about not seeing her anymore.
These are typical behaviors of people who knows that are dealing with a person you care about, but, at the same time, that person should be treated with caution. Besides, Daisuke is not behaving in this way because Naida was changed since Fleed days: he behaves immediately in this way, as soon as he sees her on Earth. Daisuke's statements are emblematic: "if this is true" "if you tell the truth" when Naida speaks about Sirius killed by a traitor. That is, he contemplates the possibility that Naida could lie: he says this possiblity even twice. Besides, Daisuke's phrase: "to return to be the person you were": does not imply the fact that Naida was at first a normal person, selfless and kind, but in relation to the suffering she had: in fact, Daisuke says also: By staying here, you may perhaps forget the nightmarish events you have experienced on the planet Fleed, Naida (...) Your suffering heart will also heal, and you can return the person you were
Of course, before, on Fleed, Naida did not behave the same way as when she met Daisuke on Earth: but these negative characteristics, which were already present in her, have developed a lot, fueled by resentment towards Duke, because - according to her - he abandoned her on Fleed.
A selfish and immature love, as you say that Naida had - and indeed it was - is not a true love, and it cannot even develop as true love: being a false love, it starts from wrong assumptions and it cannot do anything but get worse. Between Naida and Daisuke there was sexual attraction, complicity, but not love. In their ride on Earth, they act like two kids, pretending both. It is a sick relationship, because they don't take into account the truth of the situation in which they are. A love without truth is a false love.
Moreover, more than the fact that Naida uses the term "Ai", the context in which the action takes place is more important. Duke Fleed, the man Naida "loves", has just been hit strongly with a bar from herself - even if she was not fully aware of it-, he went crazy and the only cure, perhaps, is electroshock, which could be deadly ... well, in such a context (in which Naida does not even make a fold on his face, while she does not even make a slight expression of pain in seeing the scene of a mad Daisuke), she is interested only in her comparison with Hikaru, competing with her to see which one of them loves Duke Fleed more. It is a sick behavior, at least.
MY REPLY:
I don't think we are in much disagreement about Naida's character, personality and behaviour on Earth. But there is not enough evidence in the anime for us to assume that she was "mentally" disturbed while on Planet Fleed. Let me see if I understood your statements correctly.
You are implying that because Naida had a possessive and immature "love" towards Duke since they were on Planet Fleed then her "love" to him is not genuine and couldn't not grow even if given the right circumstances right?
Well, based on the same argument, I could say the Hikaru's crush on Daisuke in the first few episodes of Grendizer was also immature and somewhat possessive wanting to be always with him, yet her "teeny immature" love blossomed and evolved into what you described as "true love", so why couldn't we assume that Naida's immature love could have the same chances of evolving like Hikaru's given the right circumstances?
Besides, agreeing on what defines "true love" took us long discussions in the old French forum and in the end we could not reach an agreement. But for me, my understanding of true love is that selfless and always giving favouring the other partner and putting him/her first no matter what the sacrifice might be.
Has Naida reached that stage in her "love" for Duke whether on Fleed or Earth? Personally, I think the answer is very complex and not a straight yes or no, hence the varying opinions and debates we are having.
But let me reverse the question and ask did Duke truly love Naida while on Planet Fleed or on Earth? The answer here is much simpler and it's a definite NO.
He did not truly love her. He may have been sexually attracted to her, had a teeny crush on her, whatever.. but it was never true love from his side. I think she was more genuine in her emotions towards him than him towards her (even if her emotions were teeny an immature) hence the huge amount of anger, resentment and disappointment she had towards him when she discovered that her emotions were not equally returned. His acceptance of marrying Rubina as an example might have definitely made her feel betrayed (or even used). That huge amount of deeply embedded anger and resentment in her subconscious towards him that we saw exploding in the hanger scene in episode 25 did not stem out of nothing, and it certainly wasn't solely due to Vega's brainwashing. The term "traitor" that Vega used in her brainwashing resonated deeply with her thoughts of him as a "traitor" to their love relationship. And that's why the brainwashing found a deeper path of effect than it did with Kaori in episode 16, and Morris in episode 71 (bearing in mind the different methods used in the latter two cases).
Duke absolutely had no trust in Naida, I DON'T disagree with that at all. That's why I said that his love towards her was not true, and it was more of an infatuation, sexual attraction, superficial friendship or any thing else other than true love. He definitely trusted Hikaru more than her, and more than most people he met on Earth.
But the question we are trying to answer is did Naida genuinely love Duke regardless of the description we attribute to her emotions?
I said that her emotions were genuine but not necessarily of the "healthy" type. Did her love evolve to reach a better position on the scale of true love? Probably it did but that was too late. It didn't reach the top of the scale of true love but it certainly started heading that way in front of the of the cell in which she saw a catatonic Daisuke, and her guilt started to gnaw in her conscience for what she had inflicted upon him.
You said that she was merely in competition with Hikaru in front of the cell to prove who of them loved him more....I'm sorry I didn't see that..
I just saw a broken women who suddenly found that her life's quest and her "only love" that her life had revolved around was crushed and debilitated by the actions of her own hands!
Next to her, stood a woman who "truly loved" him and he kept his relationship with her a secret. She definitely realised at that moment in time how much Duke distrusted her, and how much he was right in that. She acknowledged then that he never loved her the way she wanted him to, and that they don't have a future together wherever it was in the universe. Love with trust doesn't fly. At the same time, she felt deeply guilty for what she did. She was the one who betrayed the love that she claimed to have not him. She probably never saw his emotions towards her correctly until that moment in time. But if she were "selfish" and still consumed by her immature emotions, would she have taken the next step of going on a suicide mission to destroy the vegan monster?
She could have chosen to escape somewhere else and "live", and make him burn out searching for her, couldn't she?
She could've chosen to remain living with him after he had been cured only to ruin his relationship with Hikaru to avenge herself, couldn't she?
A selfish possessive person remains so to the end, just like Rubina when she was dying.
But Naida elected to prove her love and redeem herself providing another opportunity to the man she loved free from her chains and accusations. Yes, the electric shock therapy was dangerous but it was better than leaving him in a catatonic state. She knew that Hikaru would be there to help him recover and that she would be of more benefit to him than her. Like Gerdha pointed out, Naida said to Daisuke "I love you" so many times, and it was time to put her words into action and she did. Surely, it was a horrible way to die but one feels so much guilt like did, inflicting the most severe punishments on self is understandably expected.
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YOUR ANSWER
All right, but these examples don't eliminate the facts: Duke Fleed left the planet after it was destroyed and no one was left alive. He clearly said this several times. Then, he can always have remorse such as "I could have done more", but the fact remains that he left after the planet Fleed was destroyed. So he did not abandoned the planet nor the Fleedians.
MY REPLY
I NEVER said that Duke left BEFORE the planet was completely destroyed, and I NEVER said that he abandoned his people or his planet, but he feels guilty because HE THOUGHT that he did AND DID NOT DO ENOUGH for them. In fact, we see in episode 49, that he did actually abandon his sister in the fires and went searching for Grendizer. So deep down there are roots for these guilt emotions and thoughts.
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YOUR ANSWER
It is therefore a different thing from "scolding". Moreover, from a psychological (and even logical) point of view, it is impossible that Hikaru (or every woman) could speak with total tranquillity to the person who has just badly hit with a steel bar - conscious or not - the man she loves. It would be totally unlikely. So, the surprised tone, along with a condemnation tone for Naida's actions seems to me normal: it is however a different thing from an open scolding.
MY REPLY
OK...wrong choice of word from my side, my apologies.
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YOUR ANSWER
In episode 2 it is said that "Vegans wanted to use Fleed technology to build Grendizer". But, if Gendizer had not existed already,
- Duke Fleed would not have gone to drive Grendizer during Vega attack
- Vegans would not have done many working to deceive the king of Fleed: they would attack immediately, without involving Rubina and a deception marriage.
So that phrase probably means that the Vegans wanted to make Grendizer more dangerous than before. Besides, the hypothesis of a neutral Fleed planet is much more likely, since, as has been said, the Vegans feared Grendizer, the secret Fleedian weapon. Moreover, as I said, Fleedians knew that Rubina was their "life insurance": I don't think they would let her go freely. Indeed, even if - as if it were absurd - they did so, in that case Daisuke would have kept watch on board of Grendizer or nearby, expecting a (possible) powerful enemy attack. Instead, the enemy attack had happened while he was away studying with Morus. So, the only possibility is that Rubina had gone away secretly.
MY REPLY
Like I explained earlier, there are other possibilities to the occurrence of the sudden attack, but we still have to deal with the contradictions in the dialogues.
Further more, a peace treaty is the acknowledged norm between nations, not holding the heiress of the country in a "hostage-like" situation which is what you implied by Rubina's presence and secret departure from Fleed.
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YOUR ANSWER
The fact that Fleedians built Grendizer means that Fleed was not a pacifist planet: pacifists would never built a weapon. A pacific planet, instead, would built wepons, because pacifics know that "si vis pacem, para bellum" ("if you want peace, prepare the war"). Also, Duke Fleed on Earth did not want to fight because he did not want to revive his trauma of the same responsibility about the destruction of Fleed that he - with his behavior with Naida and Rubina - indirectly caused. Not for pacifism ideology.
MY REPLY
I beg to differ on some points here. Whether Planet Fleed was peaceful or pacifist isn't a big issue, the important thing is that it did want to engage in wars. It preferred a defensive army consisting of Grendizer (and perhaps a small squadron of saucers similar to Minifos), but certainly waging wars on others for the sake of establishing and empire or expanding sovereignty was not in their political agenda or principles.
Any wise nation has to have defences, and certainly an advanced intelligent race like the Fleedians would have had that, but whether it was a strong defence or suitable enough to deter other planets' aggression is another thing altogether.
Duke Fleed as we have seen in episode one was not keen on piloting Grendizer because it reminded him of the trauma of his Planet's destruction, and also because he wasn't the type that liked fighting- review episode 22 and his action with Banta for example when Banta challenged him to a physical fight, or even his attitude towards fighting physically with Koji in the first few episodes.
Duke's behaviour with Naida/Rubina that caused the destruction of Fleed indirectly as you stated would not have stopped Vega from attacking Fleed and acquiring Grendizer. Like I explained earlier, it was pretty obvious to Vega the Great that Duke was not the "ambitious, ruthless, blood-thirsty fighter" that he hoped his future son-in-law to be, so definitely he would not have had let him marry his daughter in any situation.
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YOUR ANSWER
I think it is difficult believe that Fleedians were so naive as to trust a piece of paper, rather than to trust to the physical presence of Vega's daughter herself on their own planet.
MY REPLY
Then all the nations of Earth are dumb and naive by your standards and they should have held some "royalties" or "significant political figures" captives in a hostage-like situations to avoid attacks by untrusted enemy nations.
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YOUR ANSWER
It seems difficult to think that Fleedians, with their advanced scientific knowledge, had not been able to immediately recognize Vega's ships. Besides, about the fact that the attack was unexpected, it was because of the sudden absence of Rubina, who had moved away from Fleed without their knowledge. I think this hypothesis is the most logic.
MY REPLY
For you it may be more logical, for me not necessarily. I don't believe that Rubina left Fleed in secrecy. I believe that a peace treaty and an engagement contract between the princes were in place and a departure to Planet Vega as an excuse for wedding preparations was not "unusual" or "suspicious" for the Fleedians. Besides, where were the advanced Fleedian technologies in detecting and halting this "secret" escape of their "life-line" as you described her?
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YOUR ANSWER
I think it is better I clearly explain my concept: Duke Fleed, on Fleed, was not evil and then, on Earth, he become good after all that has passed. I did not mean to say this: it is a too simplified and superficial - even erroneus - presentation of the situation. Duke Fleed has always had qualities of altruism even on Fleed. Otherwise, these qualities would never have developed on Earth: a completely corrupt Duke Fleed would never have become the Duke Fleed we know. Duke's altruism on Fleed is seen in his sacrifice in saving Morus, for example.
However, Duke Fleed is also the same person who abandoned his sister in the flames. He wanted to to go to Grendizer, all right, but what he did to Maria remains a bad action, anyway. Basically, Duke Fleed committed a murder for rescue omission. It can be explained by his panic, by his desire to repair for his lack and superficiality he had with the Naida-Rubina relationship: but it is still an indirect murder. Duke Fleed on Fleed was both selfless and selfish: only later, when he left planet Fleed in flames and completely destroyed, with all Fleedians dead, he wandered for years in space: so, he was able to review what he did and to realize the severity of his actions. From that moment, his maturation began. Not completely, anyway: something about the old Duke can be seen even in the first few Grendizer episodes (his behaviour with Koji, for example).
MY REPLY
I don't disagree entirely with you, Duke Fleed was only "human", and humans are defective in some of their behaviours. They grow, evolve and mature after falling and making mistakes, and Duke was no exception.
But let us not forget the impact of Fleed's tragedy on Duke's psyche and mental state. After all, he was the "only one of his species" on planet Earth for many years, and it was a totally unknown environment to him. Interacting with its inhabitants without any previous background knowledge of Earth's history, geography, different races, countries, economy, status of the world, agriculture, world cuisines, names of animals, birds, plants , etc.. must have been a nightmare especially that he wanted to keep his real identity secret. Avoidance was probably the best tactic he could do, but that would only aggravate his stress, depression and anxiety and delay his recovery from the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder he was suffering from.
His selfless rescue for Morris on planet Fleed was in the very early attacks when the damage on the Planet was somewhat "small" in comparison with what happened afterwards. When he abandoned Maria, his parents had already been killed in front of his eyes, most of the planet had been destroyed, and Grendizer stolen. In the Original Japanese version, he was remorseful when he left Maria and apologised for leaving her (I think he said something like "Forgive me Maria" when she was calling him and he ran away). So he was basically aware that what he did was not entirely right, but given the scale of the situation, and the danger that awaited him while trying to reach Grendizer he also knew that it could have detrimental consequences to a child like Maria. He might have thought that leaving her there might give her a better chance of survival. After all, he knew that his mission to retrieve Grendizer was somewhat suicidal, so why drag a innocent child along, and this child might also hinder his efforts?
I am not defending his decision to leave her, I'm simply trying to explain it and put it in perspective of the situation.
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Thank you: I hope I explained myself. If something is not clear to you, you are free to ask.
It's been my pleasure to exchange ideas and discussions with you. Thank you.. -
.
I thank you for having submitted your observations, with which however I do not agree.
However, I thank you for showing them to me..
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